Corina meint, ich solle mal was schreiben über ein Youtube-Video. Ich habe nicht die geringste Lust dazu, denn mich ärgert diese Geschichte sehr. Andererseits ist es vielleicht kein Fehler, diesem Ärger ein bisschen Luft zu machen. Außerdem bin ich es wohl Prof. Dr. Bhakdi schuldig, aus dessen Buch ich mich für meinen Blog reichlich bedient habe, dass ich ihn mit meinen Mitteln, so geringfügig diese auch sein mögen, gegen Diffamierung verteidige. Corina hat wie immer Recht, also los!
Der ehemalige ARD-Journalist Hans Jessen hat nach seinem Eintritt in den Ruhestand eine neue journalistische Heimat gefunden im Team des Youtube-Reporters und Aktivisten Tilo Jung. Beide sind Teilnehmer der Bundespressekonferenz, von der sie regelmäßig berichten und in der sie oft richtige und wichtige Fragen stellen. Seit ein paar Wochen nun moderiert Hans Jessen eine Art Talk-Radio: Anrufer besprechen mit ihm politische Themen, die ihnen am Herzen liegen. Seine vergangene Sendung (und die erste, die ich von diesem neuen Format gesehen habe) war der Anlass für meinen Ärger.
Der erste Anrufer – Nico – stellt sich vor als jemand, der dem “offiziellen” Corona-Narrativ und den daraus abgeleiteten Restriktionen gegenüber kritisch eingestellt ist. Er beklagt die Sperrung von kritischen Youtube-Kanälen und wünscht sich eine offenere Diskussion, in der beispielsweise auch mal ein Dr. Wodarg in die Sendung von Markus Lanz eingeladen wird, um mit Prof. Drosten zu diskutieren.
Damit könnte das Gespräch eigentlich beendet sein, denn alles, was Nico sich wünscht, sollte selbstverständlich sein in einer offenen und demokratischen Gesellschaft: dass kritische Stimmen nicht gelöscht werden und dass die gebührenfinanzierten Medien ihren gesetzlich vorgegebenen Aufrag nach umfassender Information erfüllen. Natürlich widerspricht Hans Jessen dem nicht grundsätzlich, er zieht das Gespräch aber in die Länge, hinterfragt Nicos Position und nutzt die Gelegenheit, um immer wieder eigene, den Regierungskurs stützende Talking Points zu platzieren. Was nicht ganz fair ist, denn Nico betont wiederholt, dass ihm bei dem Anruf nicht an der Diskussion fachlicher Details gelegen sei, sondern daran, auf Missstände in der öffentlichen Diskussion hinzuweisen.
Hans Jessen hingegen gibt sich reichlich Mühe, Zweifel am Vorhandensein dieser Missstände zu säen. Zunächst bestreitet er, dass außer Ken Jebsen noch andere “Corona-kritische” Kanäle von Youtube gesperrt wurden; Nico nennt als Beispiele korrekterweise den Corona-Untersuchungssausschuss und den Kanal “Nuoviso”. Im weiteren Verlauf des Gesprächs zielt Jessen darauf ab, dass es durchaus berechtigt sei, das Verbreiten von gefährlichen Falschinformation (neudeutsch: Fake News) zu unterbinden. Darüber könnte man diskutieren, wenn Jessen nicht selber an mehreren Stellen des Gesprächs genau dieses tun würde: Falschinformationen verbreiten.
Bei 16:50 kommt Jessen auf den bekannten “Corona-Skeptiker” Prof. Bhakdi zu sprechen und unterstellt ihm folgende Aussage, Zitat aus der oben verlinkten “Jessen-Show”: „Man könne die Gefährlichkeit des Virus gar nicht feststellen, solange man nicht eine Vergleichszahl von – ich weiß nicht genau – 50.000 hätte, die daran erkrankt seien, und eine Vergleichsgruppe, genau so groß, die nicht [erkrankt ist], und erst wenn man festgestellt habe in dem Vergleichstest, wie viele davon tatsächlich sterben, erst dann hätte man eine wissenschaftlich exakte Analyse und könnte weiterreden.
Da ist mir dann doch der Atem gestockt, dass ein emeritierter Wissenschaftler verlangt, dass man erst 20- oder 50.000 Menschen sterben lässt bevor man sagen kann, jetzt haben wir den Beweis und jetzt kann die Politik handeln – das geht doch auch nicht.”
Das fett Markierte hat Hans Jessen frei erfunden. In Wahrheit spricht Bhakdi in einem frühen Video (offener Brief an Merkel) tatsächlich davon, dass man sich zwei Vergleichsgruppen von beispielsweise je 10.000 Patienten anschauen müsse, von denen die einen an Covid-19, die anderen an einem althergebrachten Corona-Virus erkrankt seien, um die Letalität beider Erkrankungen zu vergleichen. Nur so könne man die Gefährlichkeit der neuen Krankheit beurteilen – ein völlig naheliegender Gedanke und ganz sicher Usus in der Epidemiologie. Tatsächlich konnte man auch davon ausgehen, dass im dritten Monat der Pandemie (Zeitpunkt der Entstehung von Bhakdis “Fragen an Merkel”-Video ist Ende März) solche Daten vorliegen würden. Sie wurden allerdings – bis auf eine französische Studie, die am 19. März erschienen war und eine große Gefahr durch Covid-19 nicht belegte – nicht ausgewertet, in den Medien thematisiert oder gar bei politischen Entscheidungen berücksichtigt.
An keiner Stelle sprach Bhakdi davon, dass man erst 10.000 oder mehr Tote abwarten müsse. Das ist völliger Humbug und eine üble Verleumdung durch durch den ehemaligen ARD-Journalisten, der das angebliche Zitat nutzt, um dem emeritierten Professor die Diskursfähigkeit abzusprechen.
Eigentlich sollte Bhakdi gegen solch üble Nachrede klagen, ich habe aber gelesen, dass er das Land verlassen will. Jessen ist ja leider bei weitem nicht der einzige, der ihm derart übel mitspielt.
Bhakdis tatsächlich gestellte Forderung, dass man bei 10.000 Patienten den Krankheitsverlauf betrachten solle, wäre vielleicht zu kritisieren, wenn es diese Patienten nicht gäbe – dann hätte man drei Monate nach Entdeckung des Virus aber auch keine Pandemie – und sie wäre wohl ethisch fragwürdig in Bezug auf eine Krankheit mit einer Letalität nahe 100 Prozent. Beides war aber im März 2020 nicht gegeben: Die notwendigen Fallzahlen für solche Studien hatte man längst in China, während die geschätzte Sterblichkeitsrate (unter Berücksichtigung der Dunkelziffer nicht entdeckter Fälle) bei ca. 0,5 Prozent lag.
Den Unsinn mit den 50.000 Toten, die man Bhakdi zufolge abwarten müsse, bevor eine Faktenbasis für politische Entscheidungen gegeben sei, wiederholt Jessen bei 38:55 im oben verlinkten Video. Zuvor lenkt er das Gespräch noch auf Boris Reitschuster, den er auf ähnliche Weise diffamiert.
Ich habe immer noch keine Lust, diesen Beitrag zu schreiben, aber es muss wohl sein. Reitschuster läuft nämlich Gefahr, der nächste unbequem-kritische Geist zu werden, ähnlich wie zuvor Professor Bhakdi oder Dr. Wodarg, der von den sogenannten “Leitmedien” diffamiert und damit aus dem öffentlichen Diskurs entfernt wird [1]. Also weiter:
Jessen behauptet, Reitschuster habe in der Bundespressekonferenz ein WHO-Papier falsch zitiert und sich durch fünfmaliges Wiederholen einer längst beantworteten und ohnehin irrelevanten Frage für die BPK disqualifiziert. Es ist dabei herauszuhören, dass Jessen den Reitschuster lieber nicht mehr in der BPK sehen würde, auch wenn er das so deutlich nicht sagt. Der Witz dabei ist: Dieses Insistieren auf der immer gleichen Frage ist eine Methode von Jessens Kumpel Tilo Jung, mit der dieser die Regierungssprecher beispielsweise beim Thema “Drohnenmorde via Ramstein” regelmäßig – und aus meiner Sicht mit Fug und Recht – mehr als nur ein bisschen ärgert.
Aber zurück zu Jessen und Reitschuster. Was Jessen über diesen äußert, das zitiere ich jetzt nicht, es ist im oben verlinkten Video nachhörbar (ab 33:35). Die WHO-Notiz, um die es dabei geht, kann hier eingesehen werden:
Nachstehend eine Übersetzung der wesentlichen Punkte:
Die WHO-Leitlinie “Diagnostische Tests für SARS-CoV-2” besagt, dass eine sorgfältige Interpretation von schwach positiven Ergebnissen erforderlich ist (1). Die zum Virusnachweis erforderliche Zyklusschwelle (Ct) ist umgekehrt proportional zur Viruslast des Patienten. Wenn die Testergebnisse nicht mit dem klinischen Bild übereinstimmen, sollte eine neue Probe entnommen und mit der gleichen oder einer anderen NAT-Technologie erneut getestet werden.
[Anmerkung: Wenn zum Beispiel der Test anschlägt, ohne dass der Probant Symptome zeigt, dann sollte der Test wiederholt werden]
Die WHO weist IVD-Anwender darauf hin, dass die Krankheitsprävalenz den prädiktiven Wert der Testergebnisse verändert; mit abnehmender Krankheitsprävalenz steigt das Risiko eines falsch positiven Ergebnisses (2). Das bedeutet, dass die Wahrscheinlichkeit, dass eine Person mit einem positiven Ergebnis (SARS-CoV-2 nachgewiesen) tatsächlich mit SARS-CoV-2 infiziert ist, mit abnehmender Prävalenz sinkt, unabhängig von der behaupteten Spezifität.
Die meisten PCR-Assays sind als Hilfsmittel für die Diagnose indiziert, daher müssen Gesundheitsdienstleister jedes Ergebnis in Kombination mit dem Zeitpunkt der Probenahme, dem Probentyp, den Assay-Spezifika, den klinischen Beobachtungen, der Patientenanamnese, dem bestätigten Status etwaiger Kontakte und epidemiologischen Informationen berücksichtigen.
Übersetzt mit www.DeepL.com/Translator (kostenlose Version)
Und hier die BPK-Frage, auf die Jessen sich bezieht:
Die Antwort Drostens, der die Frage ins Lächerliche zieht und so tut, als seien nur die hiesigen Labortechniker in der Lange, den Beipackzettel seiner Tests zu lesen, ist eigentlich eine Frechheit. Insbesondere, da ihm die Problematik der nicht standardisierten Zyklusschwelle (Ct-Wert) durchaus bekannt ist – er selbst hat sie in seinem NDR-Podcast bereits thematisiert. Reitschuster tat gut daran, seine Frage bezüglich einer Nachtestung der sehr wahrscheinlich falsch positiven asymptomatischen Fälle immer wieder zu stellen – eine vernünftige Antwort darauf hat er bis heute nicht bekommen.
Zurück zu Jessen. Er platziert seine Fake News und Diffamierungen auf eine betont ruhige und altväterliche Art, die, wäre sie beabsichtigt und würden die Diffamierungen wider besseres Wissen erfolgen, an Perfidität kaum zu überbieten wäre. Den Anrufer Nico bringt er so dazu, dass er von sich aus sagt, Reitschuster solle nicht mehr zur BPK geladen werden (aber wohl ein anderer Kritiker an seiner Stelle).
Ich halte es für möglich, dass Jessen es selbst nicht besser weiß und seinerseits ein Opfer sogenannter “Faktenchecker” ist, die seit einiger Zeit – teils öffentlich-rechtlich finanziert – im Internet ihr Unwesen treiben. So oder so, die journalistische Sorgfaltspflicht verlangt ordentliche Recherche, auch von einem Youtube-Journalisten – und unabhängig davon, ob dieser nun Ken Jebsen heißt oder Hans Jessen.
Hier Reitschusters BPK-Fragen zur WHO-Notiz in komprimierter Form:
Und hier noch das Video von Professor Bhakdi, auf das Jessen wohl anspielt:
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besten Dank für deine Antwort im Jung-und-Naiv-Forum.
https://forum.jungundnaiv.de/index.php?thread/129-hans-jessen-show-deine-politiksprechstunde/&postID=24235#post24235
Ich antworte dir hier, denn dort werden meine Antworten gelöscht. Ich gehe im Folgenden auf den Teil deiner Antwort ein, der deine für Bhakdi rufschädigende Interpretation seines Ansinnens zum Inhalt hat, und nicht auf die Nebelkerze mit der Impfung.
Du schreibst:
“”im ersten satz referiere ich bhakdis erklärung, dass, ehe man sarscov-2 für gefährlich erklären könne, zunächst eine studie mit zehntausenden von probanden durchgeführt werden müsse. ich nenne dabei die zahl 50.000, mit der einschränkung, dass ich mir bei dieser zahl nicht sicher sei.
erst wenn sich im vergleich herausgestellt habe, dass die eine hälfte des testpanels viel, viel mehr tote aufwiese als die andere, könne man von einer signifikanten gefährlichkeit sprechen.
die zahl 50.000 als gesamtheit stimmte nicht, allerdings hatte ich sie ausdrücklich mit der einschränkung der unsicherheit genannt.”
Bis dahin habe ich nichts auszusetzen. Dieser Teil von Bhakdis Vorschlag wird von dir richtig wiedergegeben, auch wenn deine Zahl zu hoch ist. Wichtig ist: Bhagdi spricht über Probanden, in diesem Fall Erkrankte mit COVID-19 bzw. als Vergleichsgruppe solche, die aufgrund von Infektionen mit herkömmlichen Coronaviren erkrankt sind. Und eben nicht von Toten.
Weiter:
“völlig richtig dargestellt aber war die konsequenz von bhagdis ansatz, dass es zunächst einer großen anzahl von toten als testresultat bedürfe, um die gefährlichkeit festzustellen.”
Nein. Denn diese Toten gab es ja schon. Es war Mitte März, als Bhakdi an die Öffentlichkeit trat, also im dritten Monat der Pandemie. Man musste nur die im bisherigen Verlauf der Pandemie gewonnenen Daten analysieren. Bhakdi fordert also nicht, dass zunächst zehn- oder fünfzigtausend (Todes-)Fälle abgewartet werden sollten. Ich glaube, hier besteht das erste Missverständnis deinerseits.
Du schreibst weiter:
“im zweiten teil nenne ich die zahl von 20-50.000 möglichen toten.
diese zahl als absolute ist im zusammenhang der hier geforderten tests falsch.”
Und das ist der springende Punkt. Diese Zahl ist komplett falsch, jedenfalls in dem Kontext in dem du sie bringst. Hier nochmal deine Worte an dieser Stelle:
„Da ist mir dann doch der Atem gestockt, dass ein emeritierter Wissenschaftler verlangt, dass man erst 20- oder 50.000 Menschen sterben lässt bevor man sagen kann, jetzt haben wir den Beweis und jetzt kann die Politik handeln – das geht doch auch nicht.”
Leider ist diese von dir frei erfundene – oder auf einer Verwechslung beruhende – angebliche Forderung Bhakdis die Basis für deine Empörung über ihn, die sogar so weit geht, dass du ihm die Diskursfähigkeit absprichst. Du warst damit nicht der einzige – nach ein paar ähnlichen Kommentaren, insbesondere durch sogenannte Faktenchecker, war Bhakdis Ruf ruiniert und dieser erfahrene Professor war für die öffentliche Diskussion verbrannt. Sehr schade.
Aber weiter:
“was aber eben richtig ist: bhagdi verlangt nach tests, die eine relevante zahl von toten als voraussetzung der feststellung von gefährdung beinhalten, diese zumindest mutwillig in kauf nehmen.
das an sich macht den skandal aus. auch wenn es keine 20.000 sind – bhagdis ansatz wäre genauso ungeheuerlich, wenn es “nur” 400 corona-tote wären. im einen wie im anderen fall handelte es sich um ein menschenexperiment, das mit toten kalkuliert.”
Nochmal: das “Menschenexperiment” lief bereits. Die Natur oder was auch immer hatte es gestartet. Und es gab bereits genug Daten, die man auswerten konnte, siehe dazu auch das Diagramm im obigen Blogbeitrag.
Was Bhagdi von der Bundesregierung forderte, wie gesagt, war die Auswertung der BISHERIGEN Daten des “Experiments”. Er erwähnt eine französische Studie, die am 19. März veröffentlicht worden war und die genau das gemacht hatte: Die BEREITS GESAMMELTE Erfahrung mit der neuen Krankheit zu analysieren und in eine Relation zu setzen. Hier der Link:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7102597/
Die Studie kommt zu dem Schluss, dass COVID-19 KEINE deutlichere Gefahr darstellt als eine Infektion mit anderen Coronaviren. Wer Schulschließungen und andere Maßnahmen rechtfertigen wollte, hätte eigene Studien vorlegen müssen, die das Ergebnis der Franzosen widerlegen. DAS war Bhakdis damalige Forderung.
Dein „Missverstehen“ von Bhakdis Video hat gewisse Parallelen zu Tilo Jungs Vorstoß gegen Boris Reitschuster in der Süddeutschen Zeitung. Zu Dir und Reitschuster, also dem zweiten Teil deiner Antwort, vielleicht später mehr.
Diese ganze Situation ist schon kompliziert genug. Wir müssen Acht geben, dass sie nicht durch rufschädigende Missverständnisse noch vertrackter wird.